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Home ? Feedback ? Instead of waypoints...

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26/07/2011 17:30:53

Wizaerd
Wizaerd
Posts: 122 		I know that people have suggested waypoints for things like camera positioning, and object movements. I think a better solution would be able to set keyframes, with tweening between those keyframes. Waypoints woul dbe great for character movements, but for camera and objects, a more standard approach in almost every other animation application is being able to set keyframes. Just my opinion of course...
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26/07/2011 18:21:28

DanimalMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Danimal
Posts: 477 		i agree

Jumping, stomping, screaming agreement with this. Camera starts here, ends here, movement occurs. Oh how I would love that. In fact, every time I do even the slightest camera movement only to have to go horribly awry I curse about the lack of a basic keyframe system.
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26/07/2011 19:22:34

DreekoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Dreeko
Posts: 1257 		Danimal wrote:
i agree

Jumping, stomping, screaming agreement with this. Camera starts here, ends here, movement occurs. Oh how I would love that. In fact, every time I do even the slightest camera movement only to have to go horribly awry I curse about the lack of a basic keyframe system.


Totally agree and sympathise, but could an eight year old get their head round such a system?
Muvizu is built with simplicity in mind so that anyone from eight to eighty can pick it up and create a movie in next to no time. The problem is that movies with outstanding quality will (in my opinion) not be made by eight year olds. They will be made by older animation enthusiasts who would love to have features like keyframe options for cameras etc.
So what's the answer? Does Muvizu evolve into a tool aimed at the older enthusiast or does it maintain it's simplicity for all approach and sacrifice more advanced features that would alienate the average Joe?

Can't we have both? A Muvizu that has a simple interface with limited menus etc but also has the option to change to a more involved UI with all the goodies that the more adventurous user would love?
Muvizu standard...."click"....Muvizu advanced

Thoughts?


Cheers
D
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26/07/2011 20:23:59

Wizaerd
Wizaerd
Posts: 122 		Dreeko wrote:
Danimal wrote:
i agree

Jumping, stomping, screaming agreement with this. Camera starts here, ends here, movement occurs. Oh how I would love that. In fact, every time I do even the slightest camera movement only to have to go horribly awry I curse about the lack of a basic keyframe system.


Totally agree and sympathise, but could an eight year old get their head round such a system?
Muvizu is built with simplicity in mind so that anyone from eight to eighty can pick it up and create a movie in next to no time. The problem is that movies with outstanding quality will (in my opinion) not be made by eight year olds. They will be made by older animation enthusiasts who would love to have features like keyframe options for cameras etc.
So what's the answer? Does Muvizu evolve into a tool aimed at the older enthusiast or does it maintain it's simplicity for all approach and sacrifice more advanced features that would alienate the average Joe?

Can't we have both? A Muvizu that has a simple interface with limited menus etc but also has the option to change to a more involved UI with all the goodies that the more adventurous user would love?
Muvizu standard...."click"....Muvizu advanced

Thoughts?


Cheers
D


I agree with the options, although I'm not exactly sure an 8 year old is going to understand the multiple passes of the animation process, nor be able to precisely control the camera and object movements as they are now... I'm sure there are some that will, but certainly not all of them. Heck I'm 46, and still cannot control the camera well enough to the point that I use moving cameras in any of my movies... But I'll concede the point, best to offer options so nobody gets alienated.
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26/07/2011 20:46:29

mystoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
mysto
Posts: 471 		My 7 year old Granddaughter has shown an interest in Muvizu here lately so I've been letting her "play around" with the program a bit. While she doesn't understand how to use most of features ( and probably doesn't care about them anyway) she has grasped the basics pretty well. She knows how to create a character and to get it to walk around and so far she thinks that alone is pretty cool.

Muvizu as it is at this point in time is doing pretty well at offering total "newbies" a way of being able to animate something quickly and easily without the need for hours and hours of tutorials or training and yet has quite a few more advanced features to satisfy (for the most part) the more experienced and advanced animators.

IMHO the cool thing about Muvizu is that you can get as simple or as advanced (to a point) as you wish to. There aren't many other 3d animation programs available that can say that.

I think having a Muvizu "basic" and a Muvizu "advanced" is a great idea!
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26/07/2011 22:02:11

toonaramaMuvizu mogulExperimental user
toonarama
Posts: 661 		I agree with the idea of a junior version and an advanced version - otherwise there is a danger that the application may "fall between two stools" and become too advanced for the younger users and too restrictive for us oldies.

Toon Boom (although it has a price) offers an excellent range to entice in all ages.
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26/07/2011 22:39:43

Wizaerd
Wizaerd
Posts: 122 		I think it's an interesting idea, for different versions. And while I know Muvizu wants to be free, I'd even pay for an advanced version, assuming there were some additions, such as movement paths, object interactions or attachment points to pick up other objects, keyframes, and precise object placement/rotation for scene building, and better object/model import. Heck I've purchased iClone, and wasn't nearly as productive in it as I have been in Muvizu thus far... I paid the subscription cost of MovieStorm, and again wasn't nearly as productive in it. It'd be worth a price to be productive, to have the sheer number of assets Muvizu already comes with and be immediatley productive unlike the other alternatives.
edited by Wizaerd on 26/07/2011
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26/07/2011 23:37:12

DanimalMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Danimal
Posts: 477 		I don't see why both systems couldn't be offered in the same program. As it stands you can use the keyboard or the mouse to move cameras, why not a third method?

I've seen across numbers of threads the notion to "pay for more features." I'm pretty sure the Muvizu team always replies to this with "Muvizu will always be free." Honestly, I hate software that tiers its features. Make it as is and sell it for a price. Or in this case, give it away for nothing. Let me choose what I want to use, not your price structure.

I'm speaking way out of turn here, but I don't think that the Muvizu team hasn't implemented the features we want because we're not paying for them, more like it's just taking them time to get them implemented correctly.
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27/07/2011 08:41:07

toonaramaMuvizu mogulExperimental user
toonarama
Posts: 661 		I agree that it would be best if the non-commercial version of Muvizu remains free (who wouldn't!) but I still see some sense in having a couple of versions
edited by toonarama on 27/07/2011
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27/07/2011 08:58:47

DreekoMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Dreeko
Posts: 1257 		toonarama wrote:
I agree that it would be best if the non-commercial version of Muvizu remains free (who wouldn't!) but I still see some sense in having a couple of versions
edited by toonarama on 27/07/2011


No no no!
I didn't mean that there should be a couple of versions. I was suggesting that there should be one version with all the desired features that could be accessed by advanced users when required.
Put simply,imagine the menus as they stand just now "direct character movemnt, camera movement" etc and add "direct character movement advanced"

Advanced features that are there if you want them but the casual user would come to the simple choices first.
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27/07/2011 09:16:06

toonaramaMuvizu mogulExperimental user
toonarama
Posts: 661 		Dreeko wrote:

No no no!
I didn't mean that there should be a couple of versions.


Well - just shows we all have slightly different opinions (!) but (in my little mind) the junior version would be a simpler version than the current one and the full one would start to introduce the advanced features.

It would be interesting to have a Muvizu HQ view on all of this ....
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27/07/2011 12:38:40

DanimalMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Danimal
Posts: 477 		Dreeko wrote:
I was suggesting that there should be one version with all the desired features that could be accessed by advanced users when required.


Bingo. Great idea!

And I think we have gotten the Muvizu HQ view on these notions many times over. Personally, I'd rather they keep working on the new features we request rather than re-answering the same questions worded slightly differently.

But really guys, how about those keyframes? laugh
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27/07/2011 12:52:34

NeilExperimental userMuvizu staff
Neil
Posts: 396 		Danimal wrote:
But really guys, how about those keyframes? laugh

Maybe I'm being thick as usual, but I'm not completely clear on how keyframes and waypoints differ. Care to enlighten me?

Disclaimer: Not an official response. :p
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27/07/2011 13:31:45

DanimalMuvizu mogulExperimental user
Danimal
Posts: 477 		I'm not fully familiar with waypoints, but it was my understanding that they somehow used coordinates or something that sounded awfully confusing. Keyframes work like so: just put the camera where you want it to start, put it where you want it to end, and the program automatically does the movement for you. Is this the same for waypoints?
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27/07/2011 14:09:59

toonaramaMuvizu mogulExperimental user
toonarama
Posts: 661 		Neil wrote:
Maybe I'm being thick as usual, but I'm not completely clear on how keyframes and waypoints differ. Care to enlighten me?

Disclaimer: Not an official response. :p


Seems to be a Flash thingy where a “keyframe” stores every setting of every “layer” item on the current canvas at a particular point, whereas a “waypoint” just stores one setting.
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27/07/2011 14:45:47

freakmoomin
freakmoomin
Posts: 272 		I thought waypoints were just to create/adjust the position of a path.......where as keyframes would create the position and depending on where you put ure other keyframes would adjust the speed and direction of the motion between keyframes....but can also be moved in the timeline etc......

There are probebly many versions of each and we are all thinking of different versions
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27/07/2011 15:31:20

NeilExperimental userMuvizu staff
Neil
Posts: 396 		Danimal wrote:
Keyframes work like so: just put the camera where you want it to start, put it where you want it to end, and the program automatically does the movement for you. Is this the same for waypoints?

Yes, that's what we (or me, at least) mean when we're talking about waypoints.


freakmoomin wrote:
There are probebly many versions of each and we are all thinking of different versions


It seems so. My idea of waypoints sounds more like what Danimal and Wizaerd are calling keyframes. I've decided that in future, to avoid any confusion, they shall henceforth be called dragons. Then we can get two birds with one stone.

Disclaimer: Still not an official response. :p
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27/07/2011 15:33:02

Wizaerd
Wizaerd
Posts: 122 		toonarama wrote:
Neil wrote:
Maybe I'm being thick as usual, but I'm not completely clear on how keyframes and waypoints differ. Care to enlighten me?

Disclaimer: Not an official response. :p


Seems to be a Flash thingy where a “keyframe” stores every setting of every “layer” item on the current canvas at a particular point, whereas a “waypoint” just stores one setting.


Keyframes are most certainly not a Flash thing, they are a standard element of any type of animation, regardless if it's 2D, 3D, character animations, motion animation, etc... Keyframes are even present in traditional had drawn animations. You will not find any animation application that doesn't work on keyframes. Even Muvizu has them, they're just not exposed to us on the timeline. For example look in the timeline any animation block in the timeline. Where it begins would be a keyframe (although not visible as a keyframe), as would the ending. The space in between would most likely also be comprised of keyframes and tweens between them.

Keyframe can store any type of information. Position, rotation, scale, color, object parameters, etc...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_frame

Waypoints on the other hand are merely a visual representation of a path a character or object would follow along. At a very low level, those waypoints would translate to keyframes within a timeline, it's just that they're placed within the 3D environment, keyframes are placed directly on the timeline and do not have a visual representation in th 3d environment.
edited by Wizaerd on 27/07/2011
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27/07/2011 15:37:59

Wizaerd
Wizaerd
Posts: 122 		freakmoomin wrote:
I thought waypoints were just to create/adjust the position of a path.......where as keyframes would create the position and depending on where you put ure other keyframes would adjust the speed and direction of the motion between keyframes....but can also be moved in the timeline etc......

There are probebly many versions of each and we are all thinking of different versions


These would be the correct high level definitions of these elements in the animation industry, and are fairly standard across any and all animation applications. Even the simple logo animation programs work on the premise of keyframes as you've defined them, although there is a bit more to them.
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27/07/2011 15:46:34

toonaramaMuvizu mogulExperimental user
toonarama
Posts: 661 		Wizaerd wrote:

Keyframes are most certainly not a Flash thing, they are a standard element of any type of animation,


Yes I knew that! I was just trawling around the 'net for a definition of the differennce between KFs and WPs

PS Wizaerd - how you getting on with hitfilm as i'm thinking of purchasing too?
edited by toonarama on 27/07/2011
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